researcher and writer and in new york we cross to norman finkelstein he is a political analyst and author of crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it and norman you've been a great scholar of the so-called peace process of the last twenty years coming to the studio today i noticed that the u.s. secretary of state has gone to the middle east to kick start talks well i could have read that headline almost any month of the last twenty years so norman isn't it time to start a new format because it can't go in nowhere i don't quite agree with peter we have to be careful about what's happening now because i do think it is going somewhere but not the place where justice would more to go right now secretary of state kerry president obama and various other parties to the conflict seem pretty optimistic that they can ram down the road of the power. is really tied supplement

of the conflict the palestinians have never been weaker than the hamas is now a no. the power so-called palestinians authority is totally dependent upon the united states and europe to stay alive to support it economically the palestinians are in a very difficult situation probably and so they said they have never been weaker and now the united states along with the e.u. incidentally united states and the e.u. think there is a historic opportunity to resolve the conflict. in such a way that the palestinians are left with virtually nothing ok so ryan so what kind of agreement is that how can you have an agreement like that with no justice. i honestly don't believe this top side going anywhere and i think they're intended to go anywhere it's just lip service if you look as mr obama's speech in two thousand and eleven where he actually mansion. and the nine hundred sixty seven borders with

some swaps it was intended for the palestinians not to ask for recognition at the united nations and after that mr netanyahu came to the united states and i'm sure your viewers would know that congress has far more powers or is the most powerful branch of the u.s. government he came and here dress the united states congress in fourteen minutes he got twenty nine standing ovations in which he categorically refuse to recognize those boundaries and i think it's very important to understand that there's long as there is an alley it that means that every jewish person from anywhere in the world can go and live in israel and israel is to continue to expand and is doing so at the expense of the palestinians with american money so no i am for the peace talks i think norman would certainly know the reputation of martin indyk he worked

for a packet then he started the washington institute for near east policy to give a clear image to the pro israel. doctrine here in the space act he is not a person that would be suitable for negotiating peace talks if peace talks are to take place and certainly not somebody as biased and as pro israel is in there ok norman and you know when i saw you on democracy now with mr martin and he wasn't very pleased to see you i remember. could you report react to what what we just heard in irvine because i mean when you look at suddenly somebody like martin indyk i have to keep being reminded is he negotiating for the americans or she negotiated for the israelis because it's hard to tell. well i think that one has to look at what the rhetorical position of people like prime minister netanyahu netanyahu is and what their actual position is if you look at the negotiations that

took place in annapolis in two thousand and eight it was quite clear what the israeli position was in a word or in a nutshell what israel wants is approximately ten percent of the west bank the area behind the wall that it's been building taking in the major settlement blocks that israel wants a nullification of the palestinian right of return basically an international solution of the refugee question which doesn't allow palestinians to return to what is now the state of israel those are israel's two key demands and the opinion of the united states and israel is and also as i have to say always be your opinion union the position now is let's resolve the conflict according to the israeli terms that is not ten yahoo will make a grand show where he's withdrawing from ninety percent of the west bank to the ten

percent behind the wall and in the exchange for this grand concession by the israelis the palestinians are going to have to give up the right of return that's basically how the theater the drama is going to play itself out and if you look at yesterday's for example reports yesterday in the israeli press the e.u. made a statement it said to israel and the palestinian authority you better get serious about negotiations now because if you don't resolve the conflict we're going to cease subsidizing the projects no bust bank so basically the e.u. is now colluding collaborating with the us. turning the screws on the public student loans that incidentally is the purpose behind the current murderous blockade of gaza to break the will of the people of god so so they repudiate hamas the

palestinian authority will then claim to speak for all the palestinians the palestinian authority will because who really has no choice concede to the u.s. is really demands which the e.u. is going along with ok but so ryan it's very interesting what norman has to say going back to annapolis but i don't see mr netanyahu he's not there's not enough pressure on him to change course as a matter of fact if you look at israeli media very close closely and i know normally looks out i mean if the israelis see that they have a whole lot of cards here ok maybe netanyahu and obama don't get along very well but netanyahu does have the congress ok and you know we i don't see a lot of sticks coming out from apac i mean you know iran is one issue but you know when you look at the palestinian israel conflict congress is really very close to netanyahu is positioning and i don't see anything changing in ok the european union will drop funding that's not going to change that the israeli position not one iota

i bet no no no no let me let me go to rob you're really going to go ahead. the europeans talk about this a great deal and even as for mr obama's position here when he was running for office in two thousand and eight he promised and undivided jerusalem to israel as its capital and even president bush has not said anything so outrageous and mr obama keeps his administration they keep increasing aid to israel it's not as if you know they're playing good cop bad cop but it depends how seriously you take obama. you know not long ago to three years ago the state department even assign some money to middle east memory middle east. media is research institute which was founded by an israeli army the idea and it was to pinpoint anti-semitism i mean the israeli is their positions are so backed by the united

states and the e.u. is their greatest partner trading partner if things are not going to change until there is awareness amongst the people around the world in america people are simply too ignorant they have been brainwashed they have freedom of speech but they don't have freedom of thought all the information they have about what's going on in palestine and with the israelis is what the media tells them and the media is squarely in the pockets of the neo cons think tanks run issues and even the universities there is no freedom to discuss the issue of israel and palestine but most importantly we keep thinking about seeing a park to seems that is just a muscle it's the soldier all the same tanks the the alto defamation the hudson washington is too new policy is sought on center these are the people doubt that actually turn out these policies and implemented and as as as you said i mean

mr obama will be gone the next president can easily overrule what ever he implements so in the important thing is to have congress deal with this situation and congress is reluctant congress takes his orders from israel it does not serve the american people and to me this is treason this is betrayal and yes they managed to get away with it chuck schumer of new york senator of new york stands up and says i'm the guardian of israel instead of standing up and telling the american people that he is there to serve them he says is the shore of israel the guardian and many other such senators and congressional members ok let me let me let me let norman all right i want. you want to react to some of the. well peter i'm going to quote someone who i know you don't like so much name me namely vladimir lenin. and one said that the politics lead in one said the essence of politics is the

concrete and now suits of a concrete situation ok and i think the important thing now because we're heading towards a historic turning point and we have to be very careful about what's happening we have to be concerned about what's happening we have to concrete concretely analyze this concrete situation well the fact of the matter is secretary of state kerry is nobody's fool he would not invest so much time and so much energy in resolving the conflict unless he thought there was a realistic possibility that it can be resolved the last thing kerry wants now norman norman i'm going to let you can you help it norman i want to go to a short break i'll let you could genuinely return after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the palestine israel conflict stay with me.

the olympic torch is on its epic journey to structure. one hundred twenty three days. through two thousand one hundred towns and cities of russia. relayed by fourteen thousand people or sixty five thousand kilometers. in a record setting trip by land air sea and others face. a limp dick torch relay. on r t r g dot com. i was thinking somehow i had to come back because mom was waiting for me. and i just knew that everything would be fine for some reason was they were so confident

because we were going to get married officially after he came back how could he not come back thought of it never crossed her mind. when the militants decided to try and break through. screaming her in a. run his back was. a little and it was all over all should we know that our comrades on our commander leave us no matter how tough it gets we're team. getting was a senior in his military trio. he knew that if he didn't smother that grenade with his body comrades would die he gave his own life to save us friends.

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will leave the. technology innovation all the least of elements from around russia we've got the future. one of the wonderful strong arming a lot of these policies you. pleasure to have you with us here on t.v. today i'm sure.

welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the palestine israel conflict. ok norman i go back to you in new york to let me i want you to react to something a lot of people tell me that study this conflict that they say that if israel stops its colonizing settlement agenda in the west bank and further it risks the very nature the very existence of israel because it must continue down this path because it's become its own true identity. no i don't really think or you

know there's this tendency to look at countries in terms of this notion of original sin that is to say israel was born in sin and therefore have to live in sin and therefore there is no possibility of it changing any state has within the possibilities of change i lived in the united states through the civil rights era when i was growing up in the early in the one nine hundred fifty s. black people were still being lynched in the american south i lived through a transfer medicine transformation such that the president of the united states is now african-american if you look at the first half of the twentieth century without trying to excuse any of the other great powers i think it's fair to say that the most notorious and racist powers on earth in the first half of the twentieth century were germany and japan but if you look at b.b.c.

world service pows from the last twenty years when the countries around the world when the public opinion around the world is asked the question which countries in the world have the most positive the most favorable impact on international relations if you look at these b.b.c. pose believe there are no every year germany is number one and japan is number two or japan is number one and germany is number two countries can change ok that it's no mention or many of my years here in the army but if i use your logic then if i use your logic then israel must be invaded and conquered in occupied like germany and like japan to change its behavior that's the logic. well not exactly peter because i began with the example of the american south and you can also take the example of south africa and those two. instances where that

required was a mass popular nonviolent movement supported by international public opinion those were the key ingredients that have to be a mass popular nonviolent movement with a large amount of international support i think the same formula that worked in the american south and worked in south africa i think that formula can also work to end the israeli occupation ok so if i go back to you to irvine a i have to i will agree with norman that countries can change their countries can change for the worse look at the i think the better ones would probably agree with that i think you know africa africans that are all so ended up in israel somehow would probably agree that things are changing for the worse because each government gets more and more right wing and more and more racist what use can you hear on israeli television would be is forbidden on american television because some officials are so

blatantly racist. i'm just sure and again i do agree is normal also the countries can change but they can only change if there is a will to change israel does not have this well if you look at the popularity of mr netanyahu in israel his popularity is an all time high after he basically softened mr obama about the you know to state solution and norm himself has was kind enough to pass the due to video of israelis are using children young children teaching them hatred discrimination and the law to kill arabs lebanese gazans so there is no wills are to change and america's encouraging this by allowing it to happen by overriding every single us security council resolution if you go to the jewish virtual library they they gladly and proudly mention how many times the us has vetoed un security council resolutions so there can be no change when there's

no will and one of the most important factors is israel has a need to expand it because it wants to embrace more and more people at the moment you know we were talking talks may go somewhere but the children of gaza the people of gaza are walking in sewage to go to school if there's a school to be found because there's no fuel why is there no fuel in one thousand nine hundred nine there was no massive amounts of gas in gaza that british gas was going to explore israel put a stop to it sharon said i will never buy gas from gaza they want to own it they want to own the water in the region because thus if you expand and you have land people need water you make import fuel but you can't do it with water so they wanted to get water from turkey and in order to do that iraq and syria have to be eliminated so that the there is no stop to this and their own as you say you hear things on israeli television and you don't hear in america and america sanitizes

ever. missing the american people continue to hear from their officials that israel is our democratic ally in the region that is so false it is not an ally is costing america so much money it's bankrupted america's fiscally morally and politically and it's not an ally it is just destroying the country surrounded and is destroyed and mirka standing in the world and the people of america need to be informed he says nobody is talking about what's happening in gaza in the west fact what israel is doing we're talking about all other things here in america there's a deliberate attempt to keep the people ignorant god forbid the americans should stand up and say i don't want my money to go to people who committing heinous crimes borderline genocide and i can't eat here i'm hopeless but i'm contributing not only to the people of israel that are there at the moment but anybody who wishes to come with us from africa whether it's from asia they can everybody can go

there and my tax dollars will fund them this is what americans don't know and it's it's about time that other media started concentrating on this but then of course the media goes well we know who the ownerships are norman you know convince me that netanyahu is going to pull a new company goes to china. try to convince me. peter i think there is a misunderstanding here and i'm doing my best to try to clarify a number one just let me get back to the point that was just made ok of course i agree that israel unless it's forced to won't change the african-american luzhin the frederick douglass he famously said power never concedes anything without a demand never has it never will so of course pressure has to be applied to israel in order to get the two to act in accordance with international law i have no doubt

about that that's why i said there has to be a mass movement from below that has to be nonviolent and there has to be a lot of international popular public opinion support to get israel to budge so on that point there is no disagreement between any of us now and the question of not in yahoo you have to remember that israel if there were an academy award for best dramatic performance by a country israel would win every year it's a real it's a theater and not to know who of course not to know who is the star of the theater so i said a few moments ago that we have to distinguish between israel's rhetorical position and its actual position now simply livni who was the foreign minister in two thousand and eight she's repeatedly said that the wall israel is building the

wall is our final border israel wants about ten percent of the west bank which includes some of the most orrible land it includes the critical border resources it includes east jerusalem and basically it tries sext the west bank leaving the palestinians about. so effectively they want ten percent of the west bank but not ten yahoo star of the show he pretends that israel wants all of the west bank and then jury negotiations the claim will be that israel is making a heart wrenching concession as it gives up ninety percent of the west bank but by giving up ninety percent of the west bank is will then get to keep all it really once exactly as sippy livni keep saying the wall is our final

border israel wouldn't be investing billions and billions of dollars into building this wall if it wanted territory beyond the wall ok if i go back to irvine you know i mean i and i had a hard time doing if not if god had a head to head. jumping out of so it's not just the wall and the west bank and gaza they're in lebanon now or syria actually because it's syria golan's there they're drilling gaster they're taking somebody else's gas and oil they're not content i mean it's it would be enormous far too bright and far too well informed to be naive enough to take the words of an israeli leader when it comes to their expansion and their expansionist policies they are never content they are always asking for more and it's and this for some bizarre will not for some bizarre reason

the united states always gives in to them it's become this they've become like the monster of frankenstein i mean the united states made israel to what it is today with all that support and now it is the monster turns around to dr frankenstein and says obey me and america's obeying and nothing will change unless the mentality yes i'm one hundred percent with with norm that we need grassroots movement but there will be no grassroots movement when people are ignored when people are misinformed deliberately this is censorship one thinks the censorship is is just cutting out news but it's misinformation as well and americans are not being a chance given a chance to learn what's going on normally even in universities you know this you cannot discuss israel in universal right i'm not on this very critical. ari we've run out of time many thanks my guest and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.g.p.

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